Poison

Quelques règles issues du Netbook of poisons :

Poison Concoction Cost :
Base cost:
*Insinuative 50 gp
*Ingestive 20 gp
*Contact 50 gp
*Inhalant/gases 100 gp
Modifiers:
*A “death” poison adds +100 gp to the base price
*+5 gp per point of potential damage for a failed saving throw
*+10 gp per point of potential damage for a successful saving throw (i.e. a poison that does half damage with a successful save).
*Sleep & Paralysis poisons add +5 gp for each round of effect, 50 gp for each turn or 100 gp for each hour of effect.
*Poisons with “instantaneous” onset times add 100 gp. to the cost.
*+10 gp for every point below +4 on saving throw; i.e. a +3 poison costs an additional 10 gp, a -4 poison cost +80 gp
*+50 gp for any “bonus” effects, such as blindness, vertigo, etc. If the poison has more than one “bonus” effect this cost addition is doubled or tripled, depending on the number of additional effects.(i.e. four effects = +200 gp)

Note that bying poisons created by an alchemist will generally cost more than poisons created by someone with the herbalism proficiency (such as a wisewoman or assassin).

Example: an ingestive “damage” poison (base cost 20 gp), with a saving throw penalty of -4 (80 gp), a damage potential of 30 hit points (150 gp) and the added affect of blindness (50 gp) adds up to a cost of 300 gp/dose.

Relevant proficiencies
Identify poison: (Check: Int. -2 ; Rogue) A character with this skill is an expert on poisons, both natural and manufactured. This proficiency includes elements of herbalism, animal lore, brewing and minor alchemy.
This skill allows to :
-Identify poisons from samples
-Identify poisons from a victim’s symptoms
-knows the proper use of the various types of poison, ingestive, inhalant, insinuative, etc.
In addition, the rogue gains a +1 when combining this skill with any healing proficiency check dealing with poison, therefore granting the poison victim an additional +1 to save.

Concoct Poisons: (Check: int. +0 ; Rogue) The ability to concoct various toxic powders and poisons. Powders may be contained in fragile capsules and propelled by the use of a blowtube (area of effect: five foot radius circle) or added to food or drink. Venoms are usually used to coat blades or other sharp objects. Time required to mix and prepare is eight hours.
Possession of this skill also allows a character to make powder or contact poisons. Time required to mix and refine is one day. Ingredients per single, four-dram dose are as indicated. Powders may be added to food or drink, hurled in vials, expelled in capsule form from a blow tube (range: twenty feet), or dispersed into the air by hand (range: 5 feet a risky proposition). Duration of non-lethal powders is as indicated. The effects of most powders can be resisted by making a successful saving throw vs. poison. Area of effect for propelled/dispersed powders is a five foot diameter cloud, which subsides in 1-4 minutes.

Coating with insinuative poison
Each Vial of Insinuative poison is assumed to be about 6-oz., and each vial holds 6 doses and can coat a number of different types of weapons; in some cases, multiple doses are required to completely cover a blade. The table below should be used as a general guide:
Weapon Dose
Dart 1
Arrow 1.5
Dagger 2
Pole arm 3
Hand ax 3
Spear head 3
Short sword 6 (1 vial)
Scimitar 6 (1 vial)
Broad sword 9 (1 vial)
Long sword 9 (1 vial)
Bastard sword 12 (2 vials)
2-hd. sword 18 (3 vials)

On normal weapons (steel or iron, not magical), insinuative poison evaporates quickly; on the first day the poison is in use, very little evaporates and it does full damage. After one full day, evaporation loss takes its toll, and the poison does only half damage.
After two full days, the poison and its extra damage are completely gone. Each hit on an opponent by an envenomed weapon has the same effect as one day of evaporation: The first hit does full damage, the second hit half damage, and the third hit no damage.
For death giving poisons, the victim receives a bonus of +4 on his saving throw on the second hit.

Basic insinuative poisons (from Dragon Magazine and Netbook of poisons)
Type Cost (gp) per dose/Saving throw adjustment Run Time Result
A 25/+4 50/+2 100/+0 5 hp/rnd 1d10 hp/Half
B 100/+2 250/+0 500/-2 5 hp/rnd 5d4 hp/Half
C 250/+2 500/+0 1000/-2 6 hp/rnd 5d6 hp/Half
D 1000/+0 2500/-2 5000/-3 8 hp/rnd 5d8 hp/Half
E 2,500/+0 5,000/-2 7,500/-4 10 hp/rnd 5d10 hp/Half
F 2,500/+0 5,000/-2 7,500/-4 1 round 6d10/Half
G 5,000/+0 7,500/-2 10,000/-4 1 seg. 7d10/Half
S 250/+2 500/+0 1,000/-2 1 round Sleep 3-18 rnds/Nil
O +0 -- -- 2-12 hrs Paralysis/Nil
P +0 -- -- 2-12 hrs Debilitating/Nil
X +0 -- -- 10 hp/rnds until death Death/Half total hp
XX +0 -- -- 1 seg. Death/Half total hp

Definitions:
Type: The poison’s method of administration: Inhalants, Ingestive, Insinuatives or Contact.
Run Time: The amount of time the poison takes to run its course. This can be expressed as a length of time, or as a number of hit points per round. On some poisons, the run time is determined by the amount of damage taken; for example type AAA ingestive poison causes 3-18 (3d6) points of damage per dose ingested and has a run time of 3 hp/round. The victim is determined to take 7 points of damage from one dose, the damage will be subtracted at the rate of 3 points per round for two rounds, with the final point being lost in the third round after the poison takes effect. Some venom will not have a run time, or will have a run time of “instantaneous”. Poisons with symptoms or effects like vertigo or hallucinations have a run time, a set amount of time in which the victim suffers the effects.
Result: This is the general effect of the poison on a failed save/successful save. Examples are; damage, death, debilitation, sleep, etc.


Antidotes: Antidotes are available if a sample of the poison is made available. The antidote usually cost 120% of the purchase price of the poison. Antidotes take approximately one week to create, and must be administered within 2 rounds of the poison’s onset to be effective. If no sample of the toxin is available, one can be distilled from a blood sample, but that will take approximately a month and a 1,000 extra gold (by then it's too late anyway).

Intéressant, il faudra voir ce que tu peux nous concocter.

Par contre pour les prix je me marre. 5000 gp le save or die pour 2 utilisations (la seconde à +4 au save).
Je suis pas sur que tu trouves quelqu'un prêt à payer ce prix là.

Amusant aussi tout ce blabla autour des antidotes. Ça se résume à "(by then it's too late anyway)".

Ceci dit il manque l'info la plus importante: Combien de temps tu mets à enduire ton cimeterre ?

En 3.5 ça serait une move action... en ad&d, c'est une action. Donc j'imagine que si c'est fait en début de round, tu dois pouvoir taper en fin de round, sinon au round prochain...

1 round c'est 6 secondes en combat...

Moi je trouve cela difficile en plein combat en 1 round seulement

En combien de temps peut on prendre une potion et la verser dans son gosier?
En combien de temps peut on prendre une fiole de poison et le verser sur une arme?

C est pas verser c'est appliquer...

C est a dire "opérer avec précision" sans s'empoisonner soit même.

De fait, je vois mal un assassin, même "Charismatique" sortir sa fiole, enduire sa lame et taper dans le même round (bon la je caricature)

Franchement je vois mal ce type d'action en combat.
Cela doit être préparé en amont, le poison ne souffre pas d'approximation diantre !

Du coup, il faudrait enduire le cimeterre avant de connaitre les protagonistes du prochain combat.

Le risque de gaspiller 5000 gp de poison sur une bête secondaire serait alors très élevé.

Où alors tu optimises en enduisant 3 dagues au lieu d'un cimeterre (et tu me les files).

Cryos a écrit:

C est pas verser c'est appliquer...

Allons, pas toi, Pascal...


Un combat se déroule devant le rogue. On est en décompte par rounds. Lui est tranquille dans un coin. Il sort sa dague et prend un full round pour appliquer du poison, avec la dextérité du spécialiste, avant de venir en aide à ses alliés.

Impossible ça?

Il me semble que perdre un round en combat est suffisamment lourd de délai. Et je rappelle que les 6 secondes du round n'ont rein de réel (cf les vieilles discussions autour des mètres parcourus). On doit raisonner en termes d'actions dès qu'on est en rounds.

Question : quelle est la différence fondamentale avec un mago qui prend un round dans le combat pour se lancer un sort sur lui ; ou un prêtre?
On leur dit : "ah non désolé, fallait se préparer avant le combat? Vous comprenez, c'est par rapport aux approximations... vous risqueriez de vous emmêler les pinceaux..."

Ok moi aussi je carricature.
Mais c'est pour dire qu'il y a quelque chose de pas très juste là dedans. Le mago est entraîné, le prêtre est entraîné, l'assassin aussi est entraîné...

bd a écrit:

Un combat se déroule devant le rogue. On est en décompte par rounds. Lui est tranquille dans un coin. Il sort sa dague et prend un full round pour appliquer du poison, avec la dextérité du spécialiste, avant de venir en aide à ses alliés.

Je veux bien, mais je pense dans ce cas que l'on ne met pas le même temps pour enduire un dard ou une dague qu'une arme longue type Long Sword ou même qu'une two handed sword.

Je pense que dans ce cas on peut "ruler" sur la base du volume à enduire ?

Style Genre :
1r=> Dague et Dard
2r=> Long Sword
3r=> Two Handed

Avec un Dex check pour réduire de 1 round (minimum 1) pour les personnes entrainées.

?What do you think?

Ca, ça me semble plus raisonnable : rien de plus simple que de tremper les pointes de trois darts ou d'une dague dans un tube avant de les lancer ; par contre, enduire une épée sur toute la longueur de son tranchant est plus compliqué. Tu as d'ailleurs cette idée à la base du nombre de doses nécessaires par arme (cf plus haut dans le sujet). Ca peut servir de base.

Dans cette esprit, on doit distinguer les armes d'estoc et de taille. Une rapière ne necéssiterait que de tremper sa pointe, donc un round. Les darts, les pointes de flèche, c'est pointu et plus petit. Là on peut se servir du fire rate comme guide : 2 pointes de flèche et 3 darts par round...

Dart 1=> 3/R (attention au risque de "Grosbillisme", on peut en lancer 3/r aussi....)
Arrow 1.5=2/R
Dagger 2=1/R (2 avec un save vs Dexterity)
Pole arm 3=1/R
Hand ax 3=1/R
Spear head 3=1/R
Short sword 6 (1 vial)=1/2R
Scimitar 6 (1 vial)=1/2R
Broad sword 9 (1 vial)=1/3R
Long sword 9 (1 vial)=1/3R
Bastard sword 12 (2 vials)=1/4R
2-hd. sword 18 (3 vials)=1/6R

Pour la Rapier, je ne suis pas convaincu que le "trempage" soit viable sauf a dire que dans ce cas cela ne fonctionne que pour 1 "to hit" à mon sens.
Bref cette nouvelle table est plus contraignant et moins simple que la 1ere.

Cryos a écrit:

cette nouvelle table est plus contraignante et moins simple que la 1ere.

non parce qu'il suffit de prendre 1 vial (6 doses) = 1 round. En fait c'est tout bonnement équivalent à ta première table mais en plus détaillé.

Donc en transposant en rounds, on retombe sur ce que tu avais proposé de prime abord :

Citation :

Dart 1=> 1, 2 ou 3 par Round (2 avec un save vs Dexterity, 3 avec un save à -4)
Arrow head 1.5=2/R (2 avec un save vs Dexterity)
Dagger 2=1/R (2 avec un save vs Dexterity)
Pole arm 3=1/R
Hand ax 3=1/R
Spear head 3=1/R
Short sword 6 (1 vial)=1/R
Scimitar 6 (1 vial)=1/R
Broad sword 9 (1 vial)=1/2R
Long sword 9 (1 vial)=1/2R
Bastard sword 12 (2 vials)=1/2R
2-hd. sword 18 (3 vials)=1/3R

Voili

Quelques règles issues du Netbook of poisons pour la concoction, et une transcription du Dragon Magazine pour les prix d'achat :

Poison Concoction Cost :
Base cost:
*Insinuative 50 gp
*Ingestive  20 gp
*Contact    50 gp
*Inhalant/gases 100 gp
Modifiers:
*A “death” poison adds +100 gp to the base price
*+5 gp per point of potential damage for a failed saving throw
*+10 gp per point of potential damage for a successful saving throw (i.e. a poison that does half damage with a successful save).
*Sleep & Paralysis poisons add +5 gp for each round of effect, 50 gp for each turn or 100 gp for each hour of effect.
*Poisons with “instantaneous” onset times add 100 gp. to the cost.
*+10 gp for every point below +4 on saving throw; i.e. a +3 poison costs an additional 10 gp, a -4 poison cost +80 gp
*+50 gp for any “bonus” effects, such as blindness, vertigo, etc. If the poison has more than one “bonus” effect this cost addition is doubled or tripled, depending on the number of additional effects.(i.e. four effects = +200 gp)

Note that bying poisons created by an alchemist will generally cost more than poisons created by someone with the herbalism proficiency (such as a wisewoman or assassin).

Example: an ingestive “damage” poison (base cost 20 gp), with a saving throw penalty of -4 (80 gp), a damage potential of 30 hit points (150 gp) and the added affect of blindness (50 gp) adds up to a cost of 300 gp/dose.

Relevant proficiencies
Identify poison: (Check: Int. -2 ; Rogue) A character with this skill is an expert on poisons, both natural and manufactured.  This proficiency includes elements of herbalism, animal lore, brewing and minor alchemy.
This skill allows to :
-Identify poisons from samples
-Identify poisons from a victim’s symptoms
-knows the proper use of the various types of poison, ingestive, inhalant, insinuative, etc.
In addition, the rogue gains a +1 when combining this skill with any healing proficiency check dealing with poison, therefore granting the poison victim an additional +1 to save.  

Concoct Poisons: (Check: int. +0 ; Rogue)  The ability to concoct various toxic powders and poisons. Powders may be contained in fragile capsules and propelled by the use of a blowtube (area of effect: five foot radius circle) or added to food or drink. Venoms are usually used to coat blades or other sharp objects. Time required to mix and prepare is eight hours.
Possession of this skill also allows a character to make powder or contact poisons. Time required to mix and refine is one day. Ingredients per single, four-dram dose are as indicated. Powders may be added to food or drink, hurled in vials, expelled in capsule form from a blow tube (range: twenty feet), or dispersed into the air by hand (range: 5 feet a risky proposition). Duration of non-lethal powders is as indicated. The effects of most powders can be resisted by making a successful saving throw vs. poison.  Area of effect for propelled/dispersed powders is a five foot diameter cloud, which subsides in 1-4 minutes.  

Coating with insinuative poison
Each Vial of Insinuative poison is assumed to be about 6-oz., and each vial holds 6 doses and can coat a number of different types of weapons; in some cases, multiple doses are required to completely cover a blade. The table below should be used as a general guide:
Weapon   Dose
Dart                   1
Arrow                 1.5
Dagger                 2
Pole arm               3
Hand ax               3
Spear head           3
Short sword             6 (1 vial)
Scimitar               6 (1 vial)
Broad sword             9 (1 vial)
Long sword             9 (1 vial)
Bastard sword           12 (2 vials)
2-hd. sword             18 (3 vials)

On normal weapons (steel or iron, not magical), insinuative poison evaporates quickly; on the first day the poison is in use, very little evaporates and it does full damage. After one full day, evaporation loss takes its toll, and the poison does only half damage.
After two full days, the poison and its extra damage are completely gone. Each hit on an opponent by an envenomed weapon has the same effect as one day of evaporation: The first hit does full damage, the second hit half damage, and the third hit no damage.
For death giving poisons, the victim receives a bonus of +4 on his saving throw on the second hit.

Basic insinuative poisons buying cost (from Dragon Magazine)
Type Damage/save Cost per vial (6 doses)
AA 1d4 hp/save +2: none 300 gp/vial
A (1-8) 1d8 hp/save +2: none 600 gp/vial
B (2-16) 2d8 hp/save +0: none 1350 gp/vial
C (3-24) 3d8 hp/save +0: none 1800 gp/vial
D (4-32) 4d8 hp/save -2: none 3000 gp/vial
E (6-48) 6d8 hp/save -2: none 3750 gp/vial
F (6-60) 6d10 hp/save -2: none 4500 gp/vial
G (7-70) 7d10 hp/save -4: none 5250 gp/vial
H (8-80) 8d10 hp/save -4: none 6000 gp/vial
I (9-90) 9d10 hp/save -4: none 6750 gp/vial
J (10-100) 10d10/save -4: none 7500 gp/vial
S Sleep 1d4 rds/save +0: Nil 500 gp/vial
O Paralysis 3d4 rds/save +0: Nil 5000 gp/vial
P Debilitating 1d4 hours/save +0: Nil 7500 gp/vial
X 10 hp/round until Death/save +0: Nil 11250 gp/vial
XX Death/save +0: Nil 45000 gp/vial

Definitions:
Type: The poison’s method of administration: Inhalants, Ingestive, Insinuatives or Contact.
Run Time: The amount of time the poison takes to run its course. This can be expressed as a length of time, or as a number of hit points per round.  On some poisons, the run time is determined by the amount of damage taken; for example type AAA ingestive poison causes 3-18 (3d6) points of damage per dose ingested and has a run time of 3 hp/round. The victim is determined to take 7 points of damage from one dose, the damage will be subtracted at the rate of 3 points per round for two rounds, with the final point being lost in the third round after the poison takes effect. Some venom will not have a run time, or will have a run time of “instantaneous”.  Poisons with symptoms or effects like vertigo or hallucinations have a run time, a set amount of time in which the victim suffers the effects.
Result: This is the general effect of the poison on a failed save/successful save.  Examples are; damage, death, debilitation, sleep, etc.


Antidotes: Antidotes are available if a sample of the poison is made available. The antidote usually cost 120% of the purchase price of the poison. Antidotes take approximately one week to create, and must be administered within 2 rounds of the poison’s onset to be effective. If no sample of the toxin is available, one can be distilled from a blood sample, but that will take  approximately a month and a 1,000 extra gold (by then it's too late anyway).